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Post by Truttle on Jun 7, 2010 13:04:37 GMT -5
For as much as you reprimanded Orieus for badmouthing and judging a movie without even seeing the whole thing, you are doing the same by saying all other movies are bad if they are done by Dreamworks. You should hold judgment until after you've seen them.
And no, I won't admit that. I watched, enjoyed, and even own the DVD's of many Dreamworks CGI movies. Many of which did very well. Shrek for instance has done so well that it has gone beyond the regular 3 movies and did a fourth one which was also very nice. Also Kung Fu Panda, Sharktale, Over the Hedge and Madagascar.
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Post by czarine on Jun 7, 2010 14:38:57 GMT -5
For as much as you reprimanded Orieus for badmouthing and judging a movie without even seeing the whole thing, you are doing the same by saying all other movies are bad if they are done by Dreamworks. You should hold judgment until after you've seen them. And no, I won't admit that. I watched, enjoyed, and even own the DVD's of many Dreamworks CGI movies. Many of which did very well. Shrek for instance has done so well that it has gone beyond the regular 3 movies and did a fourth one which was also very nice. Also Kung Fu Panda, Sharktale, Over the Hedge and Madagascar. I have seen them. So I believe it's safe for me to express my opinion about those movies. I have seen: -Shrek 1, 2, 3 and 4. -Shark Tale, -Over The Hedge -Kung Fu Panda (I liked this one!) -How To Train Your Dragon -Antz -Monsters vs. Aliens -Spirit -Bee Movie -Madagaskar 1 and 2 -Chicken Run... The only ones I haven't seen are Sinbad, The Curse of the Were-Rabbit and Flushed Away. So yeah. I'm being perfectly honest here. Except for How To Train Your Dragon and Kung Fu Panda, I didn't like any of their movies. Also, I never posted an opinion on any of their movies before I've seen it, so you seriously can't accuse me of prejudice. I clearly said it was an expectation, not a conclusion. So far I've given nearly every single one of their movies a chance, and believe me if I'd seriously hate Dreamworks, I wouldn't even admit ANY of their movies are good. But here I am, fanboying about How To Train Your Dragon. ^^
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Post by Truttle on Jun 7, 2010 15:43:15 GMT -5
I think you don't understand what I'm referring to here. If you were to have listed those individual movies that you disliked and given whatever reason to that opinion then I wouldn't have any problem with it. But what you have done is discredited Dreamworks as a whole. So that negates the premise of any future movies and movies you have not seen simply by the pretext that it's made by Dreamworks. On numerous occasions you made that opinion:
Since there is no way to know exactly how well a movie will be before seeing it. Saying that it has a high probability of displeasing because of it's company is completely unjustified.
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Post by czarine on Jun 7, 2010 15:49:59 GMT -5
That was merely an 'expectation', like I said earlier. I gave it a chance after all, didn't I? If I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have even bothered watching it. Like I said: in the world of film criticism Dreamworks has quite a bad name, and that's not for no reason. They have been close to bankruptcy several times. So, back before I watched HTTYD I only liked 1 Dreamworks movie out of the 14 I watched. So I thought it was quite safe to say I could 'expect' a bad movie. Didn't I say I was wrong though? (By the way, the 'tying to a mast' thing was a reference to How To Train Your Dragon. Stoick says it when he announces his son in the Kill Ring )
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Post by Epesi on Jun 7, 2010 16:28:36 GMT -5
I think you don't understand what I'm referring to here. If you were to have listed those individual movies that you disliked and given whatever reason to that opinion then I wouldn't have any problem with it. But what you have done is discredited Dreamworks as a whole. So that negates the premise of any future movies and movies you have not seen simply by the pretext that it's made by Dreamworks. On numerous occasions you made that opinion: Since there is no way to know exactly how well a movie will be before seeing it. Saying that it has a high probability of displeasing because of it's company is completely unjustified. No, Truttle, it's not. It is not in any way unjustified for him to base his opinion on his experience. He did not like thirteen out of the fourteen Dreamworks movies he'd seen up to that point, so it is not illogical to think that he might not like this one either. And as he said, he did give it a chance in the end, so what is your point? You're acting like he completely wrote off all of Dreamworks' films without giving them a chance first, which is not the case. He's basically saying "I thought I would dislike it because I disliked their previous works," while you seem to think he is saying "I thought it would be bad because Dreamworks movies are inherently bad." And all of this is moot anyway, because he saw the movie in spite of his expectations. In spite of a long history of movies he didn't like, he still gave this one a chance. That is kind of the exact opposite of the kind of closed-mindedness you are accusing him of. What, exactly, is the problem here?
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Post by Truttle on Jun 7, 2010 16:58:18 GMT -5
Objection! *Slams my paws on a desk*
Whether or not he saw them is irrelevant to my point. It's his statements that's at issue here. His statements are admissible to the point of what I'm trying to make. When he said "I thought it was stupid before as well" was in reference to the trailer, he later loved the movie after watching it. So clearly he had already made his judgment beforehand merely on the premise that it was made by Dreamworks not because he "Thought" it might be bad because of their reputation. Which is exactly what Oreius did and you two completely reprimanded him. So now you two are contradicting yourselves by doing the same. Such a big hypocrisy. I believe I overestimated you Epesi.
Oh and by your logic, I suppose that justifies my hatred of humans then doesn't it?
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Post by czarine on Jun 7, 2010 17:07:49 GMT -5
No I didn't make a judgment about the movie, if I did I wouldn't even have bothered to see it. I made a judgment about the trailer (which I dedicated several posts to earlier, so I thought the point would be clear by now).
And on a more unrelated note: How can you hate humans? You are human!
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Post by Epesi on Jun 7, 2010 17:38:02 GMT -5
Objection! *Slams my paws on a desk* Whether or not he saw them is irrelevant to my point. Then you are making the wrong point. If seeing the films does not give him the right to judge their quality, what does? Czarine and I both have explained this thoroughly and repeatedly. Read it again, because you do not understand it. No, it is not the same. Oreius said that he would not see this movie and that he did not have to see it to know that it was bad. Czarine said he thought it would be bad but he saw it and he was wrong. See the difference? Oreius made an assumption about the film and passed judgment based only on the assumption, not the facts. Czarine made an assumption about the film, but did not pass judgment until he had seen it, and thus had all the facts. How am I contradicting myself? My actions in this thread have been consistent. I scolded Oreius for judging the movie based on faulty logic and baseless accusations. I am now scolding you for judging Czarine based on faulty logic and baseless accusations. Notice that one is a movie and the other is a person, and then ask yourself who is behaving out of line. Ironically in your defense of Oreius you are behaving far worse than he did. No, I overestimated you, Truttle. I assumed we were friends, and thus you had agreed as I did to forgive and forget. I assumed you were mature enough not to pick fights over movies. Yet now you are bringing up old disputes, unrelated to this discussion, just because you're angry at me for defending Czarine, or you're angry at both of us for being angry at Oreius, or whatever your beef is. You are being immature, petty, insolent, and basically everything a forum moderator should not be. You are even breaking the rules of this forum by continuing to derail this topic into an off-topic FIGHT. Step back from this thread and look at your behavior. No, it just proves that you embody the human qualities that you hate.
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Post by Truttle on Jun 7, 2010 19:04:58 GMT -5
What right does that give him to discredit the company itself? He hate/likes a couple movies? That's fine. He hates/likes most of them? That's fine too. That's still not enough bounds to discredit the company themselves. They've done nothing to deserve that distinction since everyone would have different opinions of the company itself. Judging from his opinion's about how Disney movies are better and Dragons was good because of Disney producers. I'd believe he was biased.
So once again I must make my point clear, because no one is listening to me. I was refering to any and all Dreamworks films. More clearly Dreamworks themselves which is what he's judging. The company and their credibility. What about future films that he cannot see until they're released. Films he has yet to see? Films perhaps he will never see? But because it's made by the company, he already believes they will be bad and even makes claims to it. It's those claims that I am against because they are discrediting the company. The company only produces the films, they don't take part in the way they are directed.
If he had used words like "Perhaps, maybe, I'm not sure, but, we'll see." Then he'd have clear and subtle reasoning and I'd have no basis for my opinion. But he didn't.
Yes we are friends.
I did nothing of the sort. I am not getting angry because you are defending Czarine, I am not getting angry because you are scolding Oreius. I am trying to be as civil as possible. You calling me names is what makes you immature as it seems to be your last resort. As forum mod, I must remain neutral to the issue and not choose sides. I would have stepped in and tried to stop Oreius but Keni had already done that. It was when I saw Czarine discredit Dreamworks I stepped in and made my objection. My statement was completely reasonable. But it seems you always enjoy belittling me and starting arguments just on the pleasure of it because I have yet to understand your reasoning behind it. Perhaps this time because I didn't choose your side.
By what means? Explain this one to me.
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Post by czarine on Jun 8, 2010 8:09:14 GMT -5
First of all, I discredited the company Dreamworks SKG with arguments as well. So far, every single movie that's been the slightest bit of a Box Office success has been turned into a franchise, with all the merchandising that goes along with it. Look at HTTYD: Katzenberg announced sequels, TV series, a road show and an MMO. Don't get me wrong, I'm actually looking forward to sequels because I have faith in the team that will be making them (the same team that made the first one). It's the company's (Katzenberg's) 'money money money'-policy that I'm discrediting, not really the company as a whole. Second... You're saying that if my choice of words had been different, you would have had no basis for your opinion? Please... Explaining myself in English is already hard enough as it is. I'm sorry I'm not able to live up to your terms of proper verbalisation, I've tried my best. You try to have this discussion with me in Dutch and let's see how you do. Third: Your position as a mod. You say so yourself: "As forum mod, I must remain neutral to the issue and not choose sides." The only one contradicting himself is you, as you're not remaining neutral at all. You are 'participating to' (read: feeding) this discussion with con arguments and accusations backing up your opinion, which in my opinion isn't really 'remaining neutral'. Anyway, let me try to rephrase my past statements: I didn't like the How To Train Your Dragon trailer, but I didn't pass judgement on the movie yet. Because I do realise you can't know what a movie is like before actually seeing it. I went to see it and came to the conclusion that it's a wonderful movie. Also, I thought the trailer was misleading and portrays the movie on a wrong way. But it's like that with pretty much every movie out there, so there's really nobody to blame for this. I didn't like the trailer for Wall-E either, but it ended up being my all-time favorite animated feature. I am also not judging any future films they will be releasing. In some cases I assume it's safe to say that it's not going to be that much of a good movie, but that's not my final judgement! Megamind doesn't seem very appealing to me at the moment either, but who knows, maybe I'll end up loving it. Who knows? Also, I don't hate the Dreamworks company as a whole; I don't want them to fail. If they get as far as bankruptcy a lot of artists will end up losing their jobs, which is not really what I want. The fact their movies normally don't appeal to me doesn't mean I hate the whole company as a whole. The fact that I disagree with their (Katzenberg's) policy, as I mentioned earlier, doesn't mean I hate the company as a whole either. I actually know a storyboard artist from Dreamworks SKG and I really hope the future movies she'll be working on will be a success. It's not like I hope Dreamworks will fail, I'm just stating the facts. And despite their bad name, I will give their future movies a chance because they have proven to be able to come up with good movies such as Kung Fu Panda and How To Train Your Dragon. But once again, presuming it will be a bad movie doesn't mean that it's my final judgement. I hope I cleared up a few things here. I believe I've been perfectly clear here now, so this will be the last post of mine on this matter. I don't see anything wrong with the behavior I described in this post, so if you still think the way I judge movies is wrong and hypocritical then I'm sorry but it's the way I roll and it's not going to change. No harm done, okay?
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Post by Truttle on Jun 8, 2010 9:28:19 GMT -5
I want to apologize for my remarks yesterday. I'll admit that I did say a few things out of anger. I apologize for calling you two hypocrites and my remark of underestimating Epesi. I had said it out of anger because Epesi's cold and abrasive response to my opinion in order dilute it to barely more than senseless babble. I don't appreciate being dismissed and silenced in that manner.
So I do apologize for that, but I do not take my original statement back as I believe it's legit. For those who still don't understand, I am not accusing you of wishing the company's failure. I am not accusing you of hating Dreamworks. I am not accusing you of not giving any of the movies a chance. I know that because you went to see Dragons and you have experienced some other of their movies. I am not dismissing all the information. What I'm trying to say that I took offense to your remarks. Saying "It's gunna suck because of Dreamworks." sends out the message to people who read this. Which is what I disagree with because it's only based on your opinion, which you have the right to have, but as deep as your true intentions are, those comments still send the message.
So anyway, I'm sorry. I apologize and hope we can forgive each other.
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Post by czarine on Jun 8, 2010 10:04:29 GMT -5
I see. Well, given all the arguments I told earlier I thought it was safe to assume it wasn't good. The way I said it might have been a bit of a dysphemism, but it was still merely an expectation and not a final judgment. Like I said, English is not my native tongue, it's still hard for me. So expressing myself is rather hard. Anyway: apology accepted.
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Post by Epesi on Jun 8, 2010 13:36:24 GMT -5
I appreciate your apology, Truttle. I am sorry that you took personal offense to my "cold and abrasive" response, but I did not write it as a personal attack against you and I never expected you to see it as such. It was not my intention "dismiss and silence" you, but to debate your arguments logically in the hopes that you would come to understand Czarine's position and stop attacking him for it. Also, in my defense, I did not resort to name-calling. Describing a person's behavior is not name-calling.
I'm just glad this is over.
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Post by Blaise Zebrataur on Jun 8, 2010 14:27:50 GMT -5
Blinks and walks in and looks around.*Whoa..all of this because I said my opinion about a movie when I have only seen the trailer...*shakes head softly.*
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jasper
Recognized Mortal
The Bear of "Love"?? ZOMGWTFBBQ
Posts: 81
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Post by jasper on Jun 8, 2010 21:18:38 GMT -5
Wow, I leave the forum for a few days and look what happens You know what I see here? A whole lot of miscommunication. Let's take a look through each others eyes. We're all friends here, (right?), and I'm sure we can all discuss how we love or hate HtTYD, Dreamworks, or anything else, for rational or irrational reasons, we can listen to people say what we sounds to us like the stupidest thing in the world, and still be kind and nice to each other.
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